UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Silver SS Lionshead Swords

The question is, how much is a silver ss lionshead sword worth these days? I'm talking about an unquestionable one with provinance, not an army sword that has been scatched down to the base metal.
Any thoughts are appreciated.

Doug

I would say somewhere around $2000.00 US

What is a silver lion head sword worth?

How do you know it's SS????

And some guy comes along and says, " two thousand dollars".

Give me a break......

Anybody can make up numbers..

Time for a reality check...................

I thhink that these are quite rare. It seems to me that the degens were somehow more common.

You should have handled an unquestionable real one before buying or ask for a good expertise.

I think that I can soon show one which I believe to be authentic. Maybe other collectors would like to show their's? That would be an interesting thread

That would be an interesting thread to see, if others would be willing to post their examples. I personally think that REAL SS lionshead swords are much rarer than the standard ss degens. But, due to the lack of standardization, the prices appear to fluctuate widely. I would always doubt any Prinze Eugen model, as these are typically swords that have lost their gold plating. When you see a real one, it will be obvious what the differences are.
Gunther, thanks for your comments. What would your 'reality check' figure/range be for such a sword?
Thorston, hope you will post a picture of yours.
Any further thoughts on value?
Doug

Some more info regarding the sword would be helpful. Do you have any pictures of it?

cheers

Daz

I agree with Dale Ellis that the asking price at U.S. shows for purported original silver SS lionhead sabers seems to hover "...somewhere around $2000".

However, if you factor in Doug's original requirements of "SS..unquestionable one with provenance"... now you have the crux of any authentication issue. ( And, not even considering the unmarked "SS" silver lionheads that may be, in fact, imperial, customs, fire official, or export.)

Technically, ANYTHING that has a broken chain of ownership between when it was produced and today CANNOT have UNQUESTIONABLE provenance.

It's "provenance" can only have increased or diminished degrees of credibility based on the existence or absence of documentation relating to it's REPORTED chain of ownership. ( Let's face it, most of us weren't there to see these things produced)

And, even with an unbroken chain of ownership, is the memory, or veracity, of the person telling the stories of originality infallible ??

Therefore, in my opinion , virtually nothing, especially 60+ year old war "bring backs", can carry "UNQUESTIONABLE provenance".

But, theoretically speaking, if such a thing were possible... ie: an UNQUESTIONABLE, original silver SS lionhead... based on rarity alone, I would expect it to have a market value in multiples ( 2X, 3x, ???) of those $2000-priced sabers that can rarely, if ever, be totally "unquestionable" to many collectors.

In my opinion, only those collectors who are extremely knowledgeable, or extremely gullible, will ever pay the retail prices for a silver SS lionhead saber.

I would also think it would be interesting to hear from the various "motel buyers" how many of these things they have vet-acquired/encountered.

To the best of my knowledge, the only verifiable Silver Lionhead carried by the SS was the Alcoso Model 113. That is assuming we use period catalogs for verification.

Will jump on the thema more in depth later. so much for now:
1.) IMO and due to what I have seen and learned and what is documented it is pure hogwash that there are silver custom sabres! I don´t know and understand HOW this acceptance could rise. Because of their silver fiings dagger? The army too has silver fittings on their dagger and has gold fittings on their sabres - AS CUSTOM HAS!
2.) The color of the glass eyes is not of importance, they might be red (more common) or green.
3.) If you ever had the luck to see one with unqustionable proveniance you will you immdiatly know "that´s it" and remember it for life.
Personally I do trust much more those lionheads WITHOUT any runes. When you carefully look at the runes of the most sabres you will easily recognize that they were not there at the time of production of the certain sabre. When were they added (engraved)? Period, postwar, who knows???
And I cannot imagine to trust in ANY SS stampings and hardly SSunit stampings on them. There is simply no sense for an SSsabre to be SSmarked (NOT to be confused with the certain common markings on the degens!).
Those pure aluminium ones are extremely easy to be recognized. Due to my experiences you in NO WAY could polish away the gild to get a silver (aluminium) lionhad. This certain smooth satin look eg. inside of the knucklebow cannot be faked imo. The gold color is not paint, it is an electrolythic process which only can be removed by force (grinding) which for sure can be traced.
Notaguru, please, what do you mean with ALCOSO Mod 113?

One of these beauties (already shown in this forum). WKC, early heavy one, heavily silvered, partially still frosted silvering. Came directly from the family of the former wearer (naturally elite guard member).
Not the least SSmarkings (beside on the portepee )
Do you think THIS one being imperial, customs, fire official, or export??????

2

3

Wotan, i really think you should take up another hobby up. Or in in fact i really think you talk a right load of crap. here are two of my rarely rare ss swords for you to take a look at.. Lets see some of your collection of early SS swords. I think not..

pic 2

Early ss officers sword with full history to Hans Sohn

pic 3

pic 4

If you want to see some more let me know and i will post them for you. however i would love to see your colection..

cheers,

Daz

Aluminum hilts are noticeably lightweight. Plating is not difficult to recognize. If there is a "danger," it would be someone polishing a sword with the early and somewhat rare nickel-silver hilt. Again, though, polished metal has a different look than plated metal and silver looks different than aluminum and nickel-silver. To my knowledge, silver-plated hilted swords were not burnished (darkened recesses in the design). Some special presentation swords may have had it, or it could have been added by the original owner (doubtful) or postwar. I think most of these were used by SS members, who likely looked upon them as anyone else who carried a sword. I believe the vast majority, and there were not that many, were simply silver-plated, just as the army types were gold-plated, without any additional embellishment.

I would please ask everyone to be civil in their replys. The sword fourm has always been a place for gentlemen. Thank You, Dale Ellis

There may be several 100% legitimate Silver Lionhead SS Swords out there. However, I can only find reference to one in the Alcoso catalog, Model 113. If I am wrong, fine.

Wotan,groovy WKC there. Lets see more swords!

Wotan,
I agree with your hypothesis 100%.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Wotan,

Wittmann's SS book, pages 302 to 306.

An "unquestionable" SS silver lion head sword, it is listed in Alcoso's catalog as such...

Notice the images on pages 304 and 305..

This is the sword "Notaguru" is refering to..

apologies..

daz

I know a "motel buyer" and he`s been doing it since the 70`s and he`s gotten just 2 silver Lionheads. 1 Wingen and an Alcoso 119.
Should have kept the Wingen.......

Gunther Beckmann, thank you for the hint. I only have looked into an ALCOSO reprint and could not find the certain model no there.
mrfabulous and RFI, thank you for your kind words.
daz181, you show exactly one of the sabres I have meant in the second paragraph.
You clearly see the diferent background around the runes which differs totally to the one e.g. behind the acorns (up). So the SSrunes were engraved lateron and not cast at the time of production. Now, when were those engraved?? When was the number stamped?? Who knows?? I do not want to say it is not period, I (and I dare to think also "we") don´t know and imo there is no serious way to get it to know for sure. And I don´t want to break my head.
Thank you for showing this sabre.
And, please, be sure, I am very happy with my hobby and how I like to handle it for myself. I would not like to force anybody to do it the same way as I do. Just my thoughts.

Wotan asked:
Do you think THIS one being imperial, customs, fire official, or export??????

Foxart reply: Yes...
take away the knot and the story (both easily changeable) and YES it could be customs or fire official!! ( ...and if it had crossed sabers or other "generic" device instead of the eagle & swaz, it could also be Weimar, Imperial or export).

However, I have no reason or personal benefit to doubt your story ...so I wouldn't dispute that your sword may be , in fact, a beautiful, authentic early SS saber. Congratulations!

But, if this wasn't just Show'n Tell, and someone wanted ME to BUY an identical sword and knot combination to yours, I would then, just for my own protection, be a little less accepting of why and when the two pieces were put together.

I'm not so sure that the silver SS portepee with the black runes is even the appropriate portepee for an early silver lion head sword. Those belong on the SS degens. The silver swords were usually adorned with a portepee with a black leather or fabric strap with three silver bullion stitched stripes, plain silver ball with a black insert or anus. See Wittmann's SS book page 304 & 305, 608. Today you see almost all silver lion head swords adorned with the silver SS portepee with the runes, I think this is wishful thinking on the part of the owners. Kind of like waiting for Santa Clause to come. If you pop something that says SS on the hilt of a sword, then it must me SS.... I may have, but I don't remember ever seeing an original period photograph of a silver SS runed portepee on a silver lion head sword... And I know I'll soon be corrected if I'm wrong.

The WKC catalog shows saber models 1015 and 1016 in silver next to the 1013, 1014 with runes. Although it does not list them as being for the SS one would think they are.
Gunther, there is a well known photo of an SS officer with silver lionhead and runes knot on page 184 of the Angolia cloth book. I have seen the same photo in other books also.

Dale, you're right.. I have the book but didn't see that picture.... Thanks.. Great book!

Notice the vintage of the uniform and visor insignia.. Very late vintage.. Possible this man was never awarded the SS degen and just used this sword for the portrait. This is the only image I've seen like this.. OK, I guess that makes it alright to slap your SS portepees on your, now SS, silver lion head swords..

Good discussion guys. Thanks for all of the input. We know that there were fewer degens awarded than ss officers, so many probably wore a silver lionshead after the introduction of the ss degen. The one I am looking at is a Klaas. I'll post some pictures once I get it.
Doug

foxart, I did the question in a provocant kind but did not want to harm you. Basically, there is no possibility for such a sabre like I have shown to be a custom one. Custom swords were gilded (documented in the WKC and the EICKHORN sales list).
Just for completition: Cannot be imperial or export because of the swaz.
Please, from where do you have the information about silver lionhead swords used by fire officials? I have never heard about this. Imo if those swords really were used by them you would see a lot more of them around.
Lateron I also will show a pure aluminium one (same model as my early one) which imo prooves that those silver lionhads were also produced and worn later in the period.
What might be really difficult to make any decisions about are those mentioned "imperial" models.

Wotan

Re: SILVER fire official swords??

There are two swords that I would cite from own personal experience ( Each is presently owned by GDC forum participants who, at their own discretion, can step in and show their specific sword.)
The first was a presentation Imperial (solid or very heavily plated) SILVER lionhead with damascus blade ( I would consider this sword as a "precedent" for 3rd Reich fire official wear). The second is a SILVER plated Eickhorn Blücher that was sold with a fireman's knot. (.. and, yes, the knot could have been a dealer replacement/addition).

These two encounters, coupled with the existence of the SILVER-colored degen that became official for 3rd Reich use, I think, establishes a strong feasibility for silver 3rd Reich fire official sabers.

And, I agree, ANY original silver lionhead is scarce, but some are just a lot more desireable than others to most collectors.

Deleted message as it is not supported by a premium membership.
Regards, wotan

I am posting this in response to the request for pics of this type of sword.
I am not interested in anybodies opinion of its authenticity. I acquired it in either 69 or 70 (do not remember for sure now) from the Army vet that brought it back.
Steve
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Steve,

That's one beautiful silver SS sword! Thanks for sharing it with us.....
(sorry this got mixed in with your images)