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quote:
Originally posted by Gaspare:
"he has been speaking out against the authenticity of several well known, accepted dagger types. These views are extremely unpopular with the collecting community.

Why don't you re-arrange that to make it that Craig's views are extremely unpopular with the collecting community. and sound verbal challenge to him...


Been a real interesting topic for sure, but this question really makes sense. There has been a clear line of attack on multiple authorities who have no real monetary motivation, yet two of them have been the subject of clear attacks or attempts to discredit them and even a clear attempt to alter findings or opinions. Maybe this was an oversight by the Max with the wording as it is, but the wording leaves no question who worded it. The Gahr marks make no sense and video tapes mean nothing nor do they prove anything and one really has to question all the parties who do have an interest. Even if they believe the item is correct, the words utilized in the Max announcement reflect on the Max, no matter who wrote them or when. While benefit of the doubt for Mr. Weinand maybe in order, it might be wise for the establishment as a whole to take note of the issues when involving themselves with those who act in a manner that may not be best for the hobby or the collector community as a whole.

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Been following this thread for a bit it just reminds me of the last one.
I never had a "Huhnlein" anything but I look forward to seeing this dagger at the MAX.

Where are the other owners of them? Gone Turtle? -Yes, why does that happen?
Does your Huhnlein have a cast Gahr hanger cartouche or the standard clip varient?

-serge-

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Gaspare: This is EXACTLY what concerns me about what appears on these web sites. I am NOT nor have I EVER been a stockholder in the MAX Show.
Jumping to conclusions, spreading untruths, mis-information!! Exactly what is wrong with these threads.
Come to the Seminar program and see what is decided about some of the questions that have never been solved in this hobby from the beginning. Don't just throw bombs and never appear where the principals can be approached in person and a fair and open dialog can be had for all to see and hear.


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Yes new images have dried up. again I ask about these new dental microscopes.... I thought they were cheap and everyone seemed gung ho in using them on etchings,engravings or what ever. This topic seems ripe for the use of this device. But without the owner of the item coming forward with more postings and images to me the debate is over. AJ has the correct thought in his posting if this was another members item!! at least then we could have had several more photos from a memeber looking for information or wanting to share images of a suspect dagger.
I for one want to see the money shots of this item and lets put this new microscope to work. Yes a very telling thread!
Bret Van Sant

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My word, my fame spreads - invitations to my "stoning" now feature in "The Military Trader". Well OK then. I will be there, and I promise the writer of that article that I will give as good as I get. Perhaps more so!

In response to the request for a change of illustrations, here is a new one to consider. It shows Huhnlein at the Berlin Olympics, 1936, and the view of the dagger is reasonably clear. Enough to determine that the form of the centre mount is quite different to that on the faked up pieces currently circulating.

Frederick J. Stephens

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That's obviously not an NSKK High Leader dagger. To see what one looks like, post the Offermann photo.


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Craig, No offense, but if the Offermann photo is one of your key pieces of evidence, why aren't you the one posting it?? FP

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Whatever happened to the old adage, "Buy the dagger, not the story"?

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The Hühnlein dagger center mounts are an “interesting” piece of work. We know that in general the makers of these specifically marked daggers had on the plus side:

* Access to acid etching materials.
* Access to mechanical engravers.
* Access to silver in either bullion or coin form.
* An ability to melt and cast metal.
* Access to the types of alloys that used to be used to manufacture general use items like metal (food) serving platters etc. (A more difficult piece of the puzzle, with multiple choices of alloys.)

And on the minus side. They lacked the right tools for the job ie:

* No one piece “800” stamp.
* No legitimate “Gahr” stamp.
* No proper bending fixture.
* No ability to electroplate metals.
* A poorly executed amateurish ability to cast silver (silver is more difficult than with some other common metals).
* A somewhat indifferent skill set with the engraving process.

The pictures of the center mount shows what seems to be a machined(?) internal border area with a thin wall casting. (Although to be fair, that is not a complete certainly without a closer look.) As was mentioned it’s a little on the crude side having a different surface finish. Silver plating apparently either being too expensive or not available for the center mount maker(s). Also (even excluding the presumed recovered scabbards), having more noticeable gaps with some specimens than others. With the black patination seen with some examples, being either as first manufactured. Or done yesterday.

With the addition of the somewhat bizarre (IMO) two toned finish of the scabbard mounts. Which of course would be somewhat less noticeable if the actual silver parts were polished every day (or as needed). But even then still does not match up exactly.

PS: I don’t know what the problem is with the Offermann photo. But it would be nice to see some followup, inasmuch as it has been touted as a major item to be used to prove a point. After all it’s a period photo, not a dagger. Right? FP

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Some examples of the center mount.

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A few more.

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Well I will say one thing...from the pictures just posted of the center mount..it appears crude and amateurish as opposed to the work of craftsmen..how does it compare to the center mount of SS and SA honour pieces? The quality seen in other blades seems lacking in many aspects on the NSKK pieces..does anyone want to offer an opinion as to why this is? Certainly an honour dagger of the NSKK would be of the highest quality and craftsmanship..afyer all look who's name is on the blade...I have seen many and have held SS and SA honour in hand, never owned an example..they do not seem comparable at first glance in this regard...cheers

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I simply haven't had the time to scan it and post it, but I think it was posted here elsewhere. Although I had a large-format scan of the entire photo, this is a clip of the relevant section. Note the "suspect" cartouche suspension device and the "crude" center scabbard fitting. This photo was not discovered until WELL after the first NSKK pieces began to surface. In the photo, one can clearly see the honor crossguards as well.

With regard to center-scabbard-mounts, the crudeness of the NSKK mount (as seen on all examples, including the one in the Offermann photo) indicates that there is SOMETHING we don't know. It is my view, however, that the photographic period evidence, combined with provenance of many of these daggers, plus the illogical claim that someone ruined a box of SA Honors and planted them all over the world over a span of 50 years, trumps the structural observations.

Of interest by way of comparison: the faux-diamonds example of the oakleaves swords and diamonds is an utter piece of crap compared to the platinum and diamonds examples. If all we'd seen were the latter, then the former would appear "fake" by comparative standards of what we erroneously expect from Germany's "top" awards. But we know, through provenance, that the cheaper examples are real, just as we have provenance backing up many of the NSKK daggers that are on the market.

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what about the cast in hall marks which would have been unlawful in the 3rd reich ?

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To you, I answer the question with another question: what about the photo? What about the provenance of many of these daggers? The hallmark anomaly is trumped by the mounting photographic, provenential, and logical evidence supporting these. There are plenty of strange reasons why the highest ranking NSKK officer in the Third Reich may have ended up giving these away with - gasp - inappropriate hallmarks. I'm sure that is what he was most worried about when they were given to Offermann and Gruner (though Gruner's dagger doesn't have this hallmark problem).


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Perhaps unlawful but who had the time to enforce such a small thing. Who with the knowledge would have scrutinized this dagger. The picture appears to be unaltered. I think this is evidence of the rubbish proposed on this dagger.
Best Wishes,
Bob

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Yes, Bob - this photo is undoctored, unaltered, and accepted by everyone as genuine. The photo appeared much later than many of these daggers on to the scene, and clearly shows what is to 99% of the collecting world, the NSKK High Leader with silver chain, "sloppy" center scabbard fitting, and cartouche-style clip. And now that we have a named example (one with the nickel chain) bought out of the woodwork, and one with the silver chain that Gailen David found, which had been modified for easier wear, plus all of the other testimony evidence, the issue of the silver content markings begins to shrink into the background as nothing more than an genuinely interesting quirk - much like the "flaw" in the Banschutz crossguard. We don't know why it is there, but it is there nonetheless.

Maybe Gahr only made the sample chain, and then Huhnlein got angry at them and gave the chains to another factory to reproduce for him. Maybe HIS NSKK High Leader (the one he is wearing, which appears to have a similar cartouche style suspension clip) was the original made by Gahr, and he sent his off to be reproduced so he could award "attaboy" awards to his friends for some last-minute road race. We will probably never know why the chains ended up being produced the way they were produced. I'm okay with that. I am not proposing any of these as serious theories, because I lack evidence of them. But they are all logically possible, and given the mounting evidence in support of these being real daggers, we are forced to accept that something strange happened - an event, the details of which, may be forever lost in time.


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Craig, I've got some other things I'm doing today, but you can send the photograph to me and I would be happy to re-size it for posting. For myself, I prefer to have it full size as sometimes some of the small details get lost. Or if not to me, perhaps to someone else you know? FP

**fprinz2000@yahoo.com**

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hall marks in europe are no small thing
faking them today can result in an unlimited fine and up to 10 years in prison imagine what the penalty in nazi germany was
could the mount be a replacement?

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Well, my goodness, the Gottlieb had finally crawled out of his hole and responded:
----
Posted 19 September 2009 10:18 Hide Post
That's obviously not an NSKK High Leader dagger. To see what one looks like, post the Offermann photo.
------
The first question must be is: Why is that 'obviously NOT an NSKK High Leader Dagger'? The man bearing it is actually NSKK Reichskorpsfuhrer HUHNLEIN. The personages of the period do not actualy come any higher - unless of course you know something that I do not know. So does he not bear an NSKK High Leader Dagger - well not unless my concept of history is wrong, maybe you are going to tell me otherwise?

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quote:
Originally posted by nickn2:
hall marks in europe are no small thing
faking them today can result in an unlimited fine and up to 10 years in prison imagine what the penalty in nazi germany was
could the mount be a replacement?

NicH
I pointed out the issues with hallmark fakery as well did others several pages ago and I keep getting met with a stony silence whenever I ask for anyone to provide a plausable explaination for the bogus ones on the dagger fittings in question.
Jim

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Jim, I was going to point out some as yet not discussed problems with the Grüner dagger, but took time out instead to take a quick look at the Offermann photo. And I don't think anyone is going to have to explain the fake “Gahr” silver fittings. Because the Offermann center mount in the photo itself is different than these (I have to assume) fakes that are currently in circulation. Which means that they are all fakes, as clearly seems to be evidenced by the photo of the center mount that Offermann is wearing.

More specifically: The Offermann dagger does not appear to have an (upper mount) embossed border. But much more importantly the center raised portion of the Offermann dagger is much more pronounced - not flat (please note the shadows). And the “wasp waist” of the center mount is not only closer to the raised central area (right next to it). It is also narrower.

PS: Can somebody please tell me what kind of XRay machine can tell what (if any) signature is on that dagger blade in the photo??? FP

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Without the arrows.

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Showing the before and after shots of the daggers I used for a quick comparison.

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I don't know why I even bother. Fred Prinz: the photo is clearly that of an NSKK High leader with crude center scabbard fitting, cartouche fitting, and HONOR fittings. You can even see the oakleaves on the crossguards. If you're going to dismiss this photo as somehow lacking, then I really have nothing else to say.

Why don't you answer ONE question: explain to us a logical scenario whereby a faker would have benefited by this bizarre scenario of ruining a box full of SA Honors, and then secretly inserting them into private hands, to be discovered over a period of 50 or so years. Neither you or the very few who share your view have EVER answered that question.

You guys are going to look very silly when ANOTHER picture comes out, someday. As to Fred Stephens' comment about "The Gottlieb" (clearly a violation of the code of conduct, I must sadly point out) coming out, why would Huhnlein give himself a dagger? Whatever dagger he has, it's probably not have what collectors know as the NSKK High Leader, though it does appear to have the identical cartouche fitting.

My challenge to either of the Freds: Give us a logical scenario to explain the 50 year gradual release of these so-called "ruined SA Honor Daggers." I daresay, you must propose a theory in order for your position to hold ANY weight whatsoever, especially in light of the Offermann photo.


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Relating to my experience only, many years ago I worked very close with old established companies in Germany with regards to signatures. They would never just grab up a signature and use it. Someone had to authorize the use of that signature especially if it was a person of stature and used on something of importance. This was done by requesting the individual write his/her name down three times and then choose the one signature that was to be used. The old timers related to me that this was the method used for as long as they could remember.

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Craig, Let me see if I can break it down to something you might possibly understand. With another image to hopefully illustrate the basic concept.

Below I have put an inverted version of the Offermann photo next to the B/W version. An unseen light source in the photo caused reflections. There is a shadow underneath the center mount. Which is caused by it sticking out. All of the current center mounts that we have seen to date are essentially flat not raised.

I don’t see a border embossed into the scabbard top mount. Do you?

As for “scenarios”: I don’t think that you were in Southern California when the unreal proliferation of fakes drove a lot of really serious collectors out of collecting TR. Do you remember me telling you about Dick Deeter (a friend and one time owner of the “Wolf” Luftwaffe sword)? He was not the only one who bailed out of TR. There were a bunch of guys that did the same thing because of the fakes, and they started to have problems telling the real from the unreal. And these were the guys who started from “ground zero” - not beginners.

So all this “scenario” stuff means nothing to me. Because there were lots and lots of fakes/altered items. And lots and lots of liars and dishonest individuals back then. Who preyed on the fact that collectors were not as well informed (back then) as today. They would tell you anything if they thought it would open your wallet. And all that stuff they generated did not disappear - it just keeps getting recycled over and over.

I also know to a certainty that you are not really - shall we say: “technically oriented”, which sometimes can make detecting fakes difficult.

But show me an NSKK dagger with a raised center section mount and I might become a believer. But if it has one of those silver fake “Gahr” marked fittings, or one of those haphazard mechanically engraved signatures. No Sale !! FP

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Here's a couple more Huhnlein pictures to mull over. I'm NOT at liberty to disclose the provider. In case anyone doesn't know this blade was made by Paul Dinger. The question is WHEN did he make it? Roll Eyes
Jim

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Another for your viewing pleasure.
BTW: I didn't have an opinion about the legitimacy of this dagger one way or another when this thread started. However; Since I have been totally stonewalled for ANY explaination as to the bogus hallmarks I certainly have developed an opinion.
Jim

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I don't know when the answer to your hallmark question might appear, but I think it could be around the time I get the answer to these questions:

1) Why is the wide connector on the Offermann dagger (dimensionally) different than this silver "Gahr" marked example to its right?

2) Why are the small (wire) connector links on the Offermann dagger of a much heavier gauge (thickness) than the "Gahr" wide connector example?

3) Why are the chain links on the Offermann dagger also different?

Of course I could always get the "logical scenario" argument again. But that doesn't explain all of these strange "characteristics" that seem to afflict this one particular dagger. If the current daggers don't match up to the Offermann dagger - what can that mean? Roll Eyes FP

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OK Craig, my previous reference to you was not in order, and I apologise for that.

The photograph that I posted of Huhnlein was taken at the 1936 Olympics. Dr. K.G. Klietmann has stated ("German Daggers and Dress Sidearms of WWII", pub. Field and Fireside, 1967) that the order to paint NSKK scabbard black, was issued on 19 May, 1936, but that the introduction of the chained dagger was not decreed until 1938.

So the example that I show being worn by Huhnlein cannot be the standard chained dagger, and the distinctive chain cartouche and the central mount appear to confirm that distinction. I submit that it is a "High Leader dagger"; and that it does not necessarily have to have "Honour fittings". The "Honour Dagger" is a separate category, although it would appear - when considering the SA examples - that it can be combined with a "High Leader chained pattern".

The one thing which is most certain, is that these distinctive items will not feature the cast spoof hallmarking, and crudely made centre mount, that you are so keen on promoting.

FP is absolutely right - his photo analysis clearly shows that the "existing chained daggers" have a suspension that is NOT IDENTICAL to that shown on the Offermann photo. The wide cartouche is visibly different - seen even with the limited quality of the photo; and the connector links are seen to be thicker and the chain links more substantial.

There is no way that the Huhnlein dagger shown is the exact same type of item that Offermann is wearing.

FJS

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1. From CG on page 5 ""Now, can someone post the photo of Offermann wearing the NSKK High Leader with silver chain, so "newer" viewers can see the photographic evidence first hand?""

2. From CG on page 5 ""In the mean time, we have the photo of Offermann wearing the NSKK with silver chain, and many documented "surfacings" of these daggers worldwide. Please explain, doubters. I think Ron Weinand, Tom Wittmann, Grant Bias, Tom Johnson, Gailen David, Ken Brethaur, Jason Burmeister, Brian Maederer, Houston Coates many advanced collectors, Brigadefuhrer Gruner, and Obergruppenfuhrer Offermann, our Danish connection, and the Mooney family, just dying to know the answer!

3. From CG on page 5: ""Folks: I once more ask someone to provide a close-up scan of Offermann WEARING the NSKK High Leader with silver chain, as pictured in Johnson's German Dagger of World War II: A photographic Reference, page 458. This seals the deal in my view. A photo that did not surface until many decades after the first NSKK High Leader is recorded as having been observed."""

1. The evidence is shown as above.

2. Where are all these other daggers just like the Offermann one?

3. Perhaps it does seal the deal - you've provided evidence which does not support your own case. In fact, far from it. (Just my opinion Houston..)

Regards

Russ

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quote:
Why don't you answer ONE question: explain to us a logical scenario whereby a faker would have benefited by this bizarre scenario of ruining a box full of SA Honors, and then secretly inserting them into private hands, to be discovered over a period of 50 or so years. Neither you or the very few who share your view have EVER answered that question.


Sorry, Craig but that is a very easy question:

- The exact same thing happens today with regular SA's and SS's being transformed in full and partial Röhms. I know personaly several collector with fake inscription Röhm daggers in their collections and these poor guys are convinced that they have the real thing...

- In 50 years someone will ask: "Why would someone have ruined all those boxes of good SA's and have them hidden all over the world? It does not make any sense..."

- And don't worry, the grandchildren of the duped collectors will be happy to testify and write letters of authenticity, certainly if some dealer offers them interesting money for the pieces...

- Will that turn all those fake Röhms into originals? No, but the ones that own them at that moment would like it... Does it sounds familiar?... Confused

Best greetings,

Herman


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quote:
Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):

As for “scenarios”: I don’t think that you were in Southern California when the unreal proliferation of fakes drove a lot of really serious collectors out of collecting TR. Do you remember me telling you about Dick Deeter (a friend and one time owner of the “Wolf” Luftwaffe sword)? He was not the only one who bailed out of TR. There were a bunch of guys that did the same thing because of the fakes, and they started to have problems telling the real from the unreal. And these were the guys who started from “ground zero” - not beginners.

So all this “scenario” stuff means nothing to me. Because there were lots and lots of fakes/altered items. And lots and lots of liars and dishonest individuals back then. Who preyed on the fact that collectors were not as well informed (back then) as today. They would tell you anything if they thought it would open your wallet. And all that stuff they generated did not disappear - it just keeps getting recycled over and over.
FP


This statement FP is right on the money
One would have to be there and see what was going on. Dick Deeter I knew from the shows-a quality person with integrity. Warren Odegard I was better acquainted with...another great guy.
What does all this have to do with the "subject-at-hand"? The prolification of good fakes. Dick Deeter was so concerned on how good the repro Gorgets were getting that he wouldn't show a single "reverse" of one in his book.
The very first dagger booklet in the late 1950's pre-Atwood, was sprinkled with high-end fakes! One of them was this rarity below...Oh My! It's a Gold Huhnlein! From the Dutch Heilman collection.
So someone was providing Dutch just what he needed to fill his needs. Recently this fake showed up appropriately with Charlie Snyder for $40,000.

-serge-



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quote:
quote:
Why don't you answer ONE question: explain to us a logical scenario whereby a faker would have benefited by this bizarre scenario of ruining a box full of SA Honors, and then secretly inserting them into private hands, to be discovered over a period of 50 or so years. Neither you or the very few who share your view have EVER answered that question.


Whoever wrote the above will be well advised to go back and read/reread Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich Volume II by T Johnson. "Chapter II Major Jim Atwood goes to Solingen" is perhaps the best contempory account of what was generally available for dagger parts material even up into the 60s. Keep in mind that many makers just boxed up parts and put them into storage somewhere around 1942 when the sale of decorative daggers ended and essentially forgot about them. I suspect that this would have included high party leader parts along with parts for most common daggers. There are pictures in this chapter of boxes of dagger parts crates of brand new(unissued) scabbards etc. He also gives an account of P Mueller opening a box that contained over 100 damascus sword and dagger blades that had never been completed into swords and daggers.
My point here is no one had to alter completed daggers at that time. There were plenty of extra parts available to essentially have anything wanted made up. We all know now that many of the early dagger books including Atwoods contain numerous fakes and fantasy pieces so we would have to be pretty naive to believe this practice wasn't fairly widespread.
It is also entirely possible that the parts that were not available were original silver fittings for high party leader daggers and that the fake ones now seen were made up elsewhere to complete these daggers hence the faux hallmarking.
If anyone has a better explaination as to the origin of these bogus silver fittings I, and I'm sure others, would like to hear it.
Jim

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quote:
Originally posted by jim m:

Whoever wrote the above will be well advised to go back and read/reread Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich Volume II by T Johnson. "Chapter II Major Jim Atwood goes to Solingen" is perhaps the best contempory account of what was generally available for dagger parts material even up into the 60s. Keep in mind that many makers just boxed up parts and put them into storage somewhere around 1942 when the sale of decorative daggers ended and essentially forgot about them. I suspect that this would have included high party leader parts along with parts for most common daggers. There are pictures in this chapter of boxes of dagger parts crates of brand new(unissued) scabbards etc. He also gives an account of P Mueller opening a box that contained over 100 damascus sword and dagger blades that had never been completed into swords and daggers.
My point here is no one had to alter completed daggers at that time. There were plenty of extra parts available to essentially have anything wanted made up. We all know now that many of the early dagger books including Atwoods contain numerous fakes and fantasy pieces so we would have to be pretty naive to believe this practice wasn't fairly widespread.
It is also entirely possible that the parts that were not available were original silver fittings for high party leader daggers and that the fake ones now seen were made up elsewhere to complete these daggers hence the faux hallmarking.
If anyone has a better explaination as to the origin of these bogus silver fittings I, and I'm sure others, would like to hear it.
Jim


Correct Jim. "They" made parts that they were short of. In many cases they had the original molds to do so. Many of which still turn up at places like "Manions" even today along with original "factory parts" as this SA Honor scabbard, chains and etc.
Note: Original factory brown leather. Eek
Some of these put-togethers are "tested" on ocassion on this very forum.

-serge-




Parts like these together with a skilled assembler with knowledge of state-of-the-art fake patina technique...and Wha-LA!

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Hi Everyone,just an observation,the centre mount on the dagger Jim posted,looks like the well made mounts on the SA honour daggers,nice finished edges.totaly different from the mounts on the Huhnlein daggers.nats

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Ron,, I publicly apologize about the stockholders statement....BUT,, you make it seem like your helpless about fixing that description.. I mean come on,,you could have that changed any time if you asked.. I mean you go on hotel buys with one of the guys that runs the show! Roll Eyes

Anyway,, I've received an email from member Mark 'KingTiger' Paul. Seems for what ever the reason he's been silenced here,,he's been temporarily [?] banned and just wanted everyone to know he didn't stop posting because he thinks the dagger is good,,far from it.......

So an interesting topic for you dagger guys. don't know about the dagger but with all the weird things that have show up over all these years why not,,BUT that link with the Gahr marks isn't one bit good and even a rank amateur could tell you that...'Debate is Over' ? far from it on that too!
Have a good time guys..

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Geez, what's Mark done to be temporarily banned - offering an opinion???

Regards

Russ

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quote:
Originally posted by Gaspare:
Ron,, I publicly apologize about the stockholders statement....BUT,, you make it seem like your helpless about fixing that description.. I mean come on,,you could have that changed any time if you asked.. I mean you go on hotel buys with one of the guys that runs the show! Roll Eyes


Gaspare,

I do not think he knew of the article and he may very well have been helpless in changing it. All things considered, he does care about the hobby and this may have flown right over his head, as a matter of fact I think it did, it may very well have flown over his partners head as well.

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