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Houston, you make a statement, and I quote you herewith:
quote:
NOTHING has been PROVEN about the silver stamps. NOTHING has been proven about the Kaltenbrunner sword. OPINION is all any of you doubters have-and everyone has one of those.

I do not know what this business is with the Kaltenbrunner sword (at least not yet, but I am sure that it will come my way - ANY ONE WANT TO TELL ME?); but the general comment should be this:

YES, something HAS BEEN PROVEN about the silver stampings - we have the documented proof - legally defined - CONCERNING WHAT THE SILVER STAMPS SHOULD LOOK LIKE. These marks and forms have been decreed by an act of National legislature. If you wish to check this, and you can do so through any library in the Western world - then the document you want is:
Reichs-Gesetzblatt, Nr. 1, 10 Januar 1886.

There is no argument that these alternative designs or possible "variations" should ever be considered - it just SIMPLY THE FACT THAT THEY DO NOT LAWFULY EXIST.

Are you about to tell me that these declarations in law have no relevance in history?

I am sorry Houston, we just made friends again, but on this issue I have to challenge you.

Frederick J. Stephens

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I am going to try and interject some information into this thread about silver that I think will be useful considering we have an international discussion going on here.
As someone who used to deal in antiques and both American and Continental silver items from time to time I can assure you there are stark differences in the way this material is regulated here and abroad.
The are NO Federal regulations in the United States inre. to marking silver as this is left up entirely to the manfacturer. The usual markings you will see on silver here is "Sterling" for solid silver which indicates a .925 silver content along with the makers name and perhaps the specific pattern for flat wear. Anything else but solid silver is generally marked with some sort of term indicating silver plate.
In Europe however the regulations for marking silver are stringent,highly controlled and strictly enforced. The silver content is indicated as for example .900, various touch marks are pressed into the metal,indicating the year made and other information and the Government is at liberty to assay metal objects at any time to assure adherence to the regulations. This is and has been true in Great Britian,France, Italy,Spain and of course Germany for Centuries as well as other countries.
When someone from Europe is talking about marking issues with silver items Americans must understand that there are severe penalties for mis-marking items in their Countries and this is treated very seriously.
I don't know if this helps but perhaps it will minimize any misunderstandings about the importance of markings on silver from a Eurpoean perspective.
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I really don’t want to get away from the primary focus now, which is more on the differently executed signatures on the Hühnlein dagger blades. But seeing that is some disagreement, here are a couple of images of the silver “Gahr” marked fittings, so that everyone can see what is being discussed.

The “Kaltenbrunner” sword was mentioned because it is just (IMO) one more example of a supposed original Third Reich artifact with a very long history which had been in an advanced collection. That as soon as it made the light of day sparked controversy. While I have some archived photos and documentation. I really don’t want to dilute this discussion and will only touch on one aspect. Myself and some others were in one camp that it was a fake. Houston, and at least I think one other participant here, were in the opposite camp. When the time comes - we can let the facts and pictures tell their own story.

The images: Example “A” shows a very poor quality silver casting with the fake cast in place supposed “Gahr” markings.

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Example “B” shows the supposed “Gahr” cast markings better, being a slightly better executed casting. With the seemingly amateurish “800” markings on both, appearing to be over-stamps from a conventional set of individual metal number stamps. FP

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quote:
YES, something HAS BEEN PROVEN about the silver stampings - we have the documented proof - legally defined - CONCERNING WHAT THE SILVER STAMPS SHOULD LOOK LIKE. These marks and forms have been decreed by an act of National legislature. If you wish to check this


FP:
As an interested bystander here I had no intention of trying to steer this thread in another direction. I was merely trying to clarify what Frederick Stephens is stating in the quote from his above post:
Jim

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Jim, There is no problem there, and I understood where you (and he) were coming from. With the pictures I posted simply to give those who have not seen them something to think about. While we hopefully get back to the main topic now, which is all of the differently executed signature variations. Which (if I remember it correctly) is something that Frederick J. Stephens was concerned about right in the beginning with the first thread. Regards, FP

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I have to say I find this thread most interesting. Also I have to declare that Daggers are not my Fortey, however Nunmismatics and silver is. The silver marks are most interesting.

The statement, "NOTHING has been PROVEN about the silver stamps. NOTHING has been proven about the Kaltenbrunner sword. OPINION is all any of you doubters have-and everyone has one of those." is intriguing. Firstly the, Kaltenbrunner sword. This I must ignore for the aformentioned reasons, but to the silver marks, these are obviously cast into the designe. This alone makes them at best invalid, at worst fake. The whole point of these is to mark the piece, to give it silver grade and to identify the maker and place of manufacture.

This explanation is a fair appraisal from possibly American perseption, "In Europe however the regulations for marking silver are stringent,highly controlled and strictly enforced. The silver content is indicated as for example .900, various touch marks are pressed into the metal,indicating the year made and other information and the Government is at liberty to assay metal objects at any time to assure adherence to the regulations. This is and has been true in Great Britian,France, Italy,Spain and of course Germany for Centuries as well as other countries. When someone from Europe is talking about marking issues with silver items Americans must understand that there are severe penalties for mis-marking items in their Countries and this is treated very seriously."

British Hall marks have been inexistance since the 1100's, their purpous was to give quality, were produced, when and by whome. On early coins, possibly up till 1600, the date was represented by a symble as a hall mark. The monarks head gave it authority, also in later times that duty had been paid on the item. In the Napolionic wars, there was a shortage of coin, captured Spanish Pillar Dollars were stamped with the Kings head hall mark and curent at 4 shillings and nine pence.

This part of the statemen, "there are severe penalties for mis-marking items in their Countries and this is treated very seriously." has great poinancy. The Master of the Royal mint has a duty to procecute false moneyers. This is still current today in Britain. The penalty for forging was hanging, drawing and quartering. Issac Newton when in latter life became Master had the onerouse task of procecuting such a person.A new work has just been published on the subject. It illistates the subject very well and I would recomend it to those who would like to be enlightened on the subject.

The method of marking is such. The Silver smith compeats his work, marks it with his TOUCH MARK, then it is sent for assay to one of the Assay houses. Here the item is tested, then stamped with the date letter, hall mark, eg London and the silver grade mark. AT NO TIME ARE THESE CAST INTO THE BODY OF THE ITEM. This would carry the highest penalties. Similar system is in place in Germany.

I hope this clears the possition on these markes. I am sure as a retiered Police officer, mr Houston Coates will appreciate the evidence and see that the casting could not happen. If it did then his profectional services would definitly have been called on.

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I understand the concern that the silver stamps are not in the form that we think they should be.
I don't think the government of the Third Reich cared much about what we think things should be

Photos show the wear of this type chain

Several collector/dealers that I know have testified about these pieces coming out of the wood work for little cost-I choose to believe them

No silver chain with box fitting or other silver chain has surfaced with the "proper" silver stamps for comparison.

So-my conclusion at this time is that while there is testimony and proof that would hold up in a court of law that there are problems and questions with these chains and the signature-nothing has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.There is no question that the testimony would also be admitted. That is my opinion and I might add it is also the opinion of the VAST majority of experienced collectors who have been around for the past 40-50 years--- and IMO the parties on the other side just express opinions but continue to express that things have been PROVEN.

There is a VAST difference between the words-- proof and PROVEN. Let's be a bit more objective-many things that have been "Proven" have been found to be false.


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One mistake here is the assumption that "the collecting world" = "people participating in this thread." In reality, the collecting world is SO MUCH BIGGER than even forums, and without doubt this thread. It's obvious to most that great effort is NOT being expended to prove these daggers are real to the "collecting world" but to a small band of people who continue to ignore testimonial, photographic, and logical evidence. The day someone describes to me a theory that makes sense as to WHY some faker would take a box full of original SA Honor Daggers, deface them, and then "hide" them around the world for people to find their barnes, safe deposit boxes, and flower beds at no profit to himself - that is the day that I will start to listen to arguments about "how hallmarks should be."

As an aside, we often romanticize "the German way" with regard to manufacturing, and adherence to law in Germany. What we know is that the only law that mattered was Hitler, and that Germany was ANYTHING but a law-abiding society during the period of 1933-1945. We know that MANY silver items were NEVER hallmarked: consider the Totnekopf Ring. Even the blood order was ONLY silver-content marked. SS and SA Honor Dagger crossguards were not hallmarked either, so this notion that "hallmarks had to be a certain way" is not at ALL born out by the facts. And when you consider that these silver chains were no doubt custom made and not sold on the open market as manufactured goods, the situation begins to reveal itself as NOT at all "proven" by the small but vocal opposition to these pieces. Besides, I can think of several very logical explanations for why these chains might have ended up so-marked.

The sad thiing for me is to watch the burden of proof shifted by the opposition, every time new evidence surfaces. I was once challenged to "find a picture of one in wear" which I did. Then, I was told that since there was no provenance to back up these daggers, I set about finding good documented provenance that would please 99% of collectors, which I did. Then, I find one out of the woodwork actually named to a Brigadefuhrer in the NSKK, in the hands of the veteran's family. Someday, I feel that we'll locate written period documentation about these daggers (something we don't even have concerning things like Himmler daggers and Birthday Swords). When we do, will the opposition say something like, "Well, Huhnlein in his letter to Gahr must have been talking about another kind of dagger, because as all three of us know, the hallmarks on these examples are bad, so they can't be the ones Huhnlein was talking about." Smile

It should also be noted that Gaspare, in an earlier post, stated this:

quote:
For those interested here is the law regarding the stamps to be used. After Hitler came into power this law was ignored for the most part and pieces were not being stamped 'Halbmond und Krone.'. Many makers continued to do so but from I've learned it was not mandatory..Smaller pieces didn't even have to be maker or content marked during the 3rd Reich period.




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Now, can someone post the photo of Offermann wearing the NSKK High Leader with silver chain, so "newer" viewers can see the photographic evidence first hand?


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Houston, Trying not to get sidetracked, the statement was made: “I don't think the government of the Third Reich cared much about what we think things should be.” They might not have cared much about what the Western Democracies thought, but this was Germany in the 1930’s. Not a Laissez-faire political state.

But more to the point, look at the castings themselves. We see at a minimum: solidification shrinkage, evidence of outgassing, and (as already discussed) cast in place markings. From the Gahr firm in Munich? And they were too poor to afford a proper one piece “800” stamp? And had to use instead, a one at a time individual set of number stamps? Or is that just an opinion?

Craig, There is not a problem with no assay marks, or lack of markings in general. There is a problem, however, with cast in place fake markings (see above).

With your knowledge of metals and silver casting etc. perhaps you could explain some of what I mentioned to Houston, and perhaps also provide your input on the ‘flat top’ connector links in the attached image?

PS: Is there any progress to report with the photos? FP

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If the fakers could not afford a fake stamp(s how could they afford to have faked these daggers with VERY costly original parts? Come on.


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Houston, Costly today, but how much did you pay for your first SA dagger in 1955? How much were “beaters” being sold for back then, and when did it start to get really expensive? We also don’t want to forget what Jim Atwood had to say about all of those leftover parts that he found in Solingen. How many trips did he make?

What I think you may be overlooking is the fact that it’s NOT the cost of the stamps. Look at the whole casting (especially Example "A"). It is not very well done at all. So it makes perfect sense that some amateur caster. When he failed with cast in place markings, had to use an individual number set - because your average local hardware store doesn't stock jeweler's supplies. (And if the work was done at someplace other than continental Europe. An “800” stamp very likely would be a special order from even a supply house.)

But more importantly - how do you explain the misalignment of the numbers in the attached image? FP

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Cost is relative-its tough to compare 1958 with 2008--but these parts or whole daggers without chains and signatures were ALWAYS very expensive unless bought for nothing.If Atwood found some it would IMO have been very stupid to alter them and not cost effective--a fact that the doubters fail to note and continue to ignore. It fact the first models without chains are much rarer.
In fact the one photo of the square fitting type chain was not known until recently-so how could it be faked--or if it was--how could it be authenticated without showing the photo?
So why do that--why not just fake a regular chain --in silver if you like.--So-who had the photo?

IMO your only argument is that you don't like the form of the markings and/or signature--you ignore everything else. I say again --NOTHING HAS BEEN PROVEN.--except in your own minds-and IMO it is a VERY minority OPINION--that's all.

The originality position is also just IMO an opinion also. If I can admit that why can't you?


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Houston, I’m pretty sure I said it before. But just so you know that I am open to the idea, I don’t have a quarrel with the idea of specially manufactured daggers. Where I have a problem is with the details. Because I am absolutely confident that the silver fittings I posted are bogus, postwar creations.

And I’m certain that at one time or another in your career you studied “the fruit of the poisoned tree” doctrine. My point being that if those chain components are fakes. What else might also be a postwar modification/creation?? Because the bad castings, the markings, and those misaligned numbers are not going to go away. They are now a part of the permanent record. FP

PS to Leipzig: The "835 RE" marking represented what exactly?

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I think this debate better start at noon on Saturday, not in the evening, as it is going to be a long one !

The challenge is that there are very few provable and inarguable facts other than: 15-20 have turned up in various conditions, with two types of chain, and that signatures do vary in detail and placement.

Beyond that, it is all a matter of opinions and these can (and will) be argued several ways in exhaustive detail without conclusion.

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If we are all so concerned about silver markings and the fact that medal manufacturers were MORE likely to be exposed to regulation than dagger manufacturers due to the amoount of silver used in their everyday practice, how come the Spanish Crosses in silver don't have the required markings?
The Silver Spanish Cross, made well before WWII started, has yet to be found with said marks that I have ever seen.
JMO,
Ron Weinand


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I still don't see the words "In my opinion" from the doubters. Or is your opinion the same as "correct without a doubt"? Eek Sorry--I don't think so. JMO Cool


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Dave, From my perspective, if no further actual new information comes forward from this point. This year might might not be any more productive than back in 2007. With instead the debate resembling more of a “he said” - “she said” spectacle in a divorce court.

Craig started this discussion in 2007. With this thread in 2009 proclaiming that the debate was over. As part of his “documentation effort” I seem to recall he even sent a picker or somebody back out to get a letter.

With on 31 August 2009 saying: “One come out in Denmark last summer, found on a farm (full story coming later, as soon as I get the written statement)”. And on September 7th: “Here is the latest documentation concerning the example that I purchased through a friend of mine in Denmark” ........ Followed up the same day with: “I have closer photos of the dagger, but not good enough for any serious study.”

Which is rather interesting as compared to 14 August 2009 where he says: “I have just returned from Pennsylvania ........ I video'd about 1 hour of interviews with the family, and got a notarized statement from them, placing the dagger in the hands of the veteran in 1945. I've got photos, DD214s,.......”etc. etc.

After all the Sturm und Drang from 2007. With his obvious interest in the daggers, he didn’t even think to take some good pictures of the Danish dagger?? How do we know if it was even a good example or not? Is the Pennsylvania dagger machine engraved (as it seems to look like in the image he posted) or is that just an optical illusion? With the point I made earlier still standing. With no or minimal data to go on, why even have the discussion, unless it’s to promote a single item?

Ron, No offense, but what do Spanish Crosses have to do with this? The issue with the "Gahr" marks is that they are cast in place. Bear no relation to German law that anyone has been able to ascertain to date that I have seen (from the Gahr firm in Munich no less). With the supposed assay marks elaborated on in the next paragraph.

Houston, my observations on the silver fittings are just that, observations. So unless you have some more informed manufacturing based knowledge to dispute the observations. They stand as is, unless of course you think that the Gahr firm used a lot of little “8” and “0” stamps to mark their products. Or do you think that using individual stamps is just an “opinion”, or maybe an optical illusion, instead of a fact? FP

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Sorry, don't know anything about the dagger,,but I gotta agree with Fred,,those are the worst looking silver marks anyone I'll bet has seen..

Gahr marks are pretty well known. ,,none look like these..

They should be stamped in,,not cast in as these obviously are..
Gahr made some really beautiful pieces. IF he made these links he'd want people to know it,,the stamp would be nice and clear,,it would be a matter of pride.
Silver guys familiar with the early German law would also point out that is not the proper crown. I've seen some variant with the moon,and some slight variants with the crown but that is no where close..
Fred,your spot on,,no little 8s and 0s..............

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Unfortunately, in many cases reputations tar and cloud opinions, as good intentioned as they might be. Agendas,both past and present can obscure objectivity. I do believe that these daggers existed but I also believe that many of what today are purported to be genuine are indeed put together or outright rubbish. Period documentation, both written and photographic should be the determining factor.

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Fred: Your characterization is not at all informed by all of the facts. The reason I didn't document the Danish buy is because I drove to Denmark to buy it from Hamburg, during another trip to do other business, and sold it the very same day. Sorry my schedule doesn't fit in with the care and planning that went into the Pittsburgh trip, a year or so later. The dagger is the same dagger that Weitze now has. That should be enough for the conspiracy theorists to have a field day with!

Ron's comment about the Spanish Cross is noteworthy, and relevant, as it speaks to the notion that "Germans had to do such-and-such with their markings." It further corroborates the claim that German manufacturers were not always concerned with exact placement of crowns and moons on their silver items. True, the Gahr markings are definitely sloppy. However, remember that Gahr was mostly a casting company. They sand-casted most of their poll-tops, and investment casted their jewelry (an arguable point of course, but evidence points to this).

I still have not heard ONE of the doubting-crowd tell us a believable or sensical scenario that would explain the proliferation of these daggers over the span of 50 years by some faker who allegedly destroyed a hundred grand in SA Honor Daggers, for no profit to himself.

In the mean time, we have the photo of Offermann wearing the NSKK with silver chain, and many documented "surfacings" of these daggers worldwide. Please explain, doubters. I think Ron Weinand, Tom Wittmann, Grant Bias, Tom Johnson, Gailen David, Ken Brethaur, Jason Burmeister, Brian Maederer, Houston Coates many advanced collectors, Brigadefuhrer Gruner, and Obergruppenfuhrer Offermann, our Danish connection, and the Mooney family, just dying to know the answer!


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Folks: I once more ask someone to provide a close-up scan of Offermann WEARING the NSKK High Leader with silver chain, as pictured in Johnson's German Dagger of World War II: A photographic Reference, page 458. This seals the deal in my view. A photo that did not surface until many decades after the first NSKK High Leader is recorded as having been observed.


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OK, But I’m a little confused. The “Hühnlein” dagger with the beater relic blade. And the fresh/new appearing signature. Was obtained in Denmark (or Hamburg?). On a trip from Sweden? Was sold to Weitze, who has it on his web site. But Spock showed some pictures of it with the rust at the ricasso removed. So does Weitze actually have it, or did he dump it? FP

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The different conditions of the logo .

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The opposite side.

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IMO this all has to be with old incorrect idea that everything German has to be correct, identical and perfect--and textbook to be correct and period. NOTHING could be further from the truth. There are too many examples to even be noted here. Just try and get a 100% agreement on many items. It won't happen. These "rules" are often many years old without revision and their supporters are in many cases destroying the collectibility of these non textbook original items via the internet and present the idea that they and only they are right and can't be wrong.Some of these doubters don't even really collect daggers and/or have not for some time. Some are newer collectors and don't really know the history of some of the pieces they doubt.
IMO this is misinformation as the vast majority of serious and experienced collectors do not concur.
Just take a look at your collection-any non conformist items in there? They must be fake then? right? Wrong, Wrong ,and Wrong. They may be-but they may not.

We have always known that almost always, just one red flag or non-textbook characteristic or even two in many instances too numerous to mention or list here is not conclusive enough to PROVE an item is altered or fake. Now-many collectors may want to avoid these pieces but we are still talking OPINION-not facts---and the doubters STILL won't admit this--Their position is that they can't be wrong. I say this is destructive to the hobby. Just say it!!! Say you can be wrong. Do it for the good of the hobby. YOU--Yes you! Can be wrong. We ALL can without exception IMO.JMO

AND--the sad fact it that it is almost impossible to get 100% agreement on MANY items. MANY times an experienced collector will say " I just don't like the look of it" Why? " I don't really know but something does not look right"??????????? Or "I don't like it-Im not really sure" It is not listed in regulations and there are no wearing photos--YATTA, Yatta. Just opinion-not what we wanted to hear--but there it is. Razz Confused Wink This is the hobby you have chosen-accept it--don't expect even close to 100% agreement-you won't get it. JMO-over 55 years experience.


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Sorry you are terribly confused, Fred. There were two. One in Denmark, which Weitze eventually got, and a 2nd one in TERRIBLE condition that several of us bought together, in Germany. Weitze never the beater. Furthemore,I have no idea what he does with his inventory. Lastly, I know of no dagger found in Sweden.

The doubters have a responsibility to explain the Offermann photo, explain the fact that MANY silver items do not even contain moons and crowns (and many that do show a VAST variety with respect to style, quality and placement), and explain a convincing scenario of how anyone could have profited from the destruction and hiding of valuable daggers, around the world, into the hands of non-collectors, for profit (and sometimes not) decades later. Until those three issues are addressed to our satisfaction, their skepticism will be seen as simply uninformed.


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Who does the "our satisfaction" refer to Gottlieb? I sincerely question the statement that Fred Stephens is "terribly confused". This is turning into a "where is the pea" thread. In my opinion YOU have to prove statements, not what you propose...that others prove whatever you say is incorrect. I have seen that movie before along with other collectors and that is not the way it's done.
The main problem you are having, in my own personal opinion, is that you are moving all over the board with items (rings, tunics, daggers,etc) and that severely hampers anyone's ability to want to take your "this is conclusive proof and the end of the story" proclamations seriously. I think that this is the reason your statements are routinely hammered on the different forums. Your credibility and ethics have wounded you in all these area's, not this one thread. This is a supportable fact and not a personal statement of my own creation. Good luck...

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Craig, Confused yes. "Terribly confused" I'm not so sure. I used to live in that general area, and what was throwing me off was the “another” part of: “The reason I didn't document the Danish buy is because I drove to Denmark to buy it from Hamburg, during another trip to do other business, and sold it the very same day.” I had no idea of what (" another") trip you were talking about, or if there was a particular sequence involved?

So you sold it to Weitze the same day you purchased it? According to Spock, Hermann Historica had it in their catalog. Unless it's confidential, what date did you sell it to Weitze?

And maybe what our definitions of what a "beater" is are a little (or a lot) different. Weitze got the (Danish ?) dagger that I posted just above with the motto side that is all pitted and worn - right? FP

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Yes sometimes dealers will say "I just don't like the look of it" but many times they will give you a reason and actually tell you what is wrong with it..but god forbid that you question the integrity of a "great authority" with 75 years of experience..because then you will be called crazy...well I had such an experience recently and the item was shown to some of the most respected headgear names in the hobby and the consensus was unanimous....bad and not period and post war but it did not deter the "respected" seller/dealer from placing it back out for sale 20 minutes later Frown gentlemen what Kingtiger states is true..and I direct this statement at no one individual..we have not created nor nutured your reputations, they are your doing..if I ever venture into the arena of salesmanship I would expect to be held to the same standard of ethics and decency to which I held others...I did not expect to be chastised nor ostracised for holding people accountable...

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[quote]We know that MANY silver items were NEVER hallmarked: consider the Totnekopf Ring. Even the blood order was ONLY silver-content marked. SS and SA Honor Dagger crossguards were not hallmarked either, so this notion that "hallmarks had to be a certain way" is not at ALL born out by the facts. And when you consider that these silver chains were no doubt custom made and not sold on the open market as manufactured goods,

We know that Very few 3rd Reich awards and badges were marked in regard to metal content in any way. A few of the exceptions that come to mind are ,Oak Leaves and Blood Orders. These items were NOT manufactured to be sold on the commercial market but rather manufactured as awards to be presented so IMO the rules for marking commercial goods didn't apply. This should also answer the question raised elsewhere as to why other awards wern't marked at all.
However; This doesn't excuse the shoddy marking exhibited on some of the chains shown in this thread. Hallmarks I am very certain were NEVER cast into objects; They were stamped. Again IMO; Items have to stand on their own and this type of deviation has to be accounted for. I would be more than willing to review any variances to the accepted silver stamping procedure inregards to flatware or other silver items from Germany during this period.
Jim

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Jim,

I have a pair of cuff links, which my mother bought for my father in England in the 1960s, that have the Hallmarks cast into them. I'll post a pic when I find them.

There was an immediate lawsuit by one of the Guilds, the result of which was a judgment which essentially said that if items were to be sold as silver, they must be Hallmarked, but that the method of applying the Hallmark was NOT limited to any method.

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Dave:
I can't address this particular instance but I've looked at hundreds of silver items over the years and have NEVER personally seen cast hallmarks. The practical reason for this is while hallmarking changes from year to year many patterns remain for several years and stamping makes meeting required regulations easier.
Again; I'm not trying to paint myself as an expert but just commenting on my own observations over the years. Hopefully someone with more specific knowledge of German hallmarking will join this discussion.
Furthermore I don't personaly have an opinion about the authenticity of these particular daggers one way or the other and if the subject of markings hadn't arose I would probably not have joined in the discussion.
Jim

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british hall marks are strictly controled and are not put on by the manufacturer so cast hall marks on a british made item are illegal and prison sentences are still handed down for fake ,be they stamped or cast, marks
i believe this has always been the case with german hall marks??
i have no comments to add about the rest of the dagger but that top mount looks very amateurish and not up to any jewllers standard i think at best its a later addition pehaps copied from an original

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if the item is small the word sterling or .925 can be stamped into it by the maker but i have never seen the word cast into an item

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Craig,, 'The doubters have a responsibility' ...No,, you got that wrong,,YOU have the burden of proof :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof


Anyway,,I've been lucky enough to have in my hands a few pieces of Gahr jewelry:
Rune necklace on pg.71 & 100 of NSDAP / SS Silversmith book.
A stylized set of SS cufflinks very similar to those on pg.92 of same book.
A few of the SS civil pins..
ALL had nice clear marks.. The sand cast pole tops also, they appear to be nice clear marks.. EVERY Ghar mark shown in the NSDAP / SS Silversmith book display nice clear marks whether they are cast or stamped pieces..

Is it possible there were some leftover postwar without the chain and the chains were made up early postwar? Or the links made up 20, 30 years ago to go on the daggers or,,,,well, you guys figure that out.........

As I've mentioned I'm not a dagger man,,but I do know those are very poor quality cast links [pitting,bubbling,uneven surface etc.] with incorrect Gahr markings.

http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884.html

I ask anyone to see the above link and find just one open crown similar to the one on the dagger link! Or any set of marks as messy as the dagger links.
,, yes there are some variations on the German hallmarks.. But the basic is a partial moon and Imperial State Crown or Coronet type,,that is a closed top. ALL the marks on any German hallmark site will have the variations of that type. The one on the dagger link is a type of circlet. Look at the document showing the law for hallmarks posted by Craig. Those are the marks,,back then the law. Again, not enforced by the 3rd reich but when they were used they just used their old hallmark stamp,,same one they used in the turn of the century and 1920s etc.

1960s England isn't 1930s/40s Germany... By the 30s the old '2nd reich' marks were not enforced,,anything or real silver was marked in England to some degree... But, if you wanted to sell a high end piece in Germany you can be sure the manufacturer put a content and makers mark even if it is just the initials. Some more elaborate, some not.
For just about all jewelers/manufacturers it was a matter of pride, they wanted the admirers to know - 'We made this!' .. The links are marked,,you must ask yourself why?

nickn2 ,that's a great senario! :
"top mount looks very amateurish and not up to any jewllers standard i think at best its a later addition pehaps copied from an original"

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The statement, " have a pair of cuff links, which my mother bought for my father in England in the 1960s, that have the Hallmarks cast into them. I'll post a pic when I find them.

There was an immediate lawsuit by one of the Guilds, the result of which was a judgment which essentially said that if items were to be sold as silver, they must be Hallmarked, but that the method of applying the Hallmark was NOT limited to any method."

The applying of Hall Marks are undertaken by the Assay house. IT CAN NOT BE CAST. This is an iligal opperation, punishable with very hard time. If you want to cheque this, then contact the Assay House London, they will confirm this. I would put it liker this, would an American citizen, by and sell the Congressional medal of honour. There would be no penalty. I could go to the Max and sell one? I hope the analagy has some bearing. Would the US authorty take no notice? On the other hand would the Asay office take no notice?

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Those are the worst Hallmarks ever!!! I dont think they should be cast!!! I guess its down to people if they would ever want to take the risk on buying one of these.

Personally as collectors it comes down to what you are happy with, I would probably pass on owning one of these unless it was a real bargain as I would always have the doubt in my mind about it being right.

Can anyone post a hallmark from a chained SS Honor?

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We’re getting away a little from the signatures aspect of the discussion, which is just one aspect of the Hühnlein daggers.

But the input of those who have more knowledge of silver and silver markings is certainly most welcome. For that part of the discussion here is a composite of the faked markings. Showing another example of both the cast, and the individually hand stamped # 8’s and # 0’s with them all grouped together. While it seems quite obvious to me and a number of others, it may not be to everyone. So if anyone questions that interpretation I would be happy to elaborate (at least from my own perspective).

And something good may still come from this part of the discussion:

“In the mean time, we have the photo of Offermann wearing the NSKK with silver chain, and many documented "surfacings" of these daggers worldwide. Please explain, doubters. I think (#1 Craig), (#2) Ron Weinand, (#3) Tom Wittmann, (#4) Grant Bias, (#5) Tom Johnson, (#6) Gailen David, (#7) Ken Brethaur, (# 8) Jason Burmeister, (# 9) Brian Maederer, (#10) Houston Coates many (?) advanced collectors, (# 11) Brigadefuhrer Gruner, and (# 12) Obergruppenfuhrer Offermann, (# 13) our Danish connection, and the (#14) Mooney family, just dying to know the answer!”

I would imagine that with the combined institutional/accumulated knowledge of at least some of the still living individuals cited above. They could figure out among themselves when they first saw the silver fitted Hühnlein daggers appear on the scene. Which would provide a possible start date for a counterfeiting operation to have been in operation.

And by using the signatures. And other criteria of those daggers as compared to the rest. Possibly find some original examples - that could help set a baseline for what a legitimate Hühnlein dagger would or should look like?? No guarantees, but I think it might be worth the effort. FP

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