UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Degen or Honor Ring rarity?

Is there opinions on what's scarcer:
The ss officer degen or ss honor ring.

Can you give input on what item was scarcer during the 3rd Reich period and in existence in collections today.

Seems to me because of the size of the degen(it could'nt exactly be carried around in your pocket or easily hid)that it would be by far less plentiful.Plus werent many swords destroyed after Germany's surrender.

Ive read about estimated figures about how many rings were produced and how many were thought to be around now, but have never heard any stats on the ss officer degen.

I'd like to hear what you guys think.

Thanks

I think the degen is more scarce,neither of them rare.I think the price of poker will go up when Craigs book comes out on the ring.

Rings are far rarer in my view. Don Boyle and I have observed about 300 rings (we combined our data for my book), and I would guestimate that there are probably about 300 more somewhere. They were produced far less than swords, and their survival rate - given their size - is far less than the SS Degen. I have probably seen 500 SS swords in my travels, at least.

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb:
Rings are far rarer in my view. Don Boyle and I have observed about 300 rings (we combined our data for my book), and I would guestimate that there are probably about 300 more somewhere. They were produced far less than swords, and their survival rate - given their size - is far less than the SS Degen. I have probably seen 500 SS swords in my travels, at least.

Hi Craig,

i am correct , you say : there are only 600 authentic rings query ?
You have seen 500 authentic SS Leader Degens ??!!

Best.

Beauty of the ring is it's attributable, to me the most important part of collecting, if you can't link it with anyone it's just an artifact.

Most Degens are unattributable, but in the case of a wholly substantiated piece being 100% guaranteed to belong to an SS officer, it becomes a different matter.

Off topic slighlty but, if I was given the choice of a 100% personalised researchable Degen against a ring I would go for the degen.

Just my two bobs worth,

Nolan

Nolan-
Isnt the SS officer degen the only award that was exclusivly awarded to ss officers only,whereas the rings were awarded to eligable enlisted persons also?

Dean, only a few enlisted men received the ring and to qualify one had to have either the Gold Party Badge or Coburg Badge. I think the ring may have been held in higher regard than the Degen.

From what I've seen on here and other forums the ring seems to be more prized than a degan, but I reckon thats because of what I said, you can identify and research a ring far easier than a degan, what I said above is just my own opinion.

How they ranked in importance during the reich, I wouldn't know.

Nolan

I see many more rings for sale on the web than SS degens.Which is a supply and demand thing.The rings may be rarer but the degens in greater demand bringing more money.Much like the chained SS compared to a chained NSKK.The NSKK is much rarer but which one brings more money ?

The reason you see more rings hitting the market is because many older collectors are divesting of their collections and as more Vets die off families are selling off their booty. When the currant surplus is sold off you won't see nearly as many on the market IMO. Prices for the rings and degans are steep. The rings seem to start around 6K and go up but I'm not sure of the degen prices.

Zorro- I agree that at present there are more rings for sale on the web than Degens but I also think it was just the opposite 10-15 years ago.

Looking through the 37 Deints list it would seem that the rings by far outnumber the swords(except in the case of ss Junkerschulen)at least during that year.

Plus the fact the rings were produced for 12 years vs. the Degens 5 year production run and the Degen did not seem to have as clearly defined criteria for award as the ring did would be factors to consider also IMO.

On the other hand what about surviving rings and degens.
All those rings that were supposedly blast sealed in the mountains of Germany,or lost on the battlefeild vs. all the officer swords that were deliberatly destroyed or discarded at the wars end.The Degen would seem like it would have been tougher to send home by 'liberators' than a small ring also.

It would be interesting to hear from ss researhers such as Bernie,Ross,or J.P.Moore and get their thoughts/experiences on this if possible.

Mr Gottlieb has lots of rings to sell (expensive) AND loads of books.
Naturally he is going to play them up.No swords??
Seiler

I remember just a few years ago when Gailen David had a few degens on his site at what you call very resonable prices today, always regretted not jumping on one.

Nolan

quote:

Originally posted by Seiler:
Mr Gottlieb has lots of rings to sell (expensive) AND loads of books.
Naturally he is going to play them up.No swords??
Seiler

Seiler, Craigs site puzzles me slighlty if you go to his Gallery page he shows some nice degans and swords and states 'Enquire' would you think these peices are for sale or what?

Nolan

SS degen you coud get for let say 3000 - 4000 $ in pretty disent conditon but Honor rings not completly worn are much more, so i will go with Honor rings always, specialy becourse i already have the SS / Police deggen !

An SS degen for usd 3-4,000....dream on, double the usd 4,000 and more.

I'd take a degen over an honor ring any day of the week, just my personal opinion, each to his own.

Jonathan

SS police-
Where can you get a decent condition ss officer degen for $3000-$4000 these days????
In my opinion it seems to me,in general, these items have been fairly comparable in value,demand, and maybe in scarcity.

Yeah.Dream on.SS Degen at $4 grand??? (x 2!!)
But I have mine AND the Ring so not in the hunt.
Nolan,
I not so long ago asked Craig about The Gallery
"Enquire"
He told me some items were still For Sale BUT the Damascus were gone,NO Honor Daggers,but some others still there.You have to ask!
Seiler

A near mint SS Officer, the early all nickel silver type, will go for about $ 10,000 USD.

And this one sold for $15,000 on Tom Wittman's site.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/728099473/m/7010027255

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Ross-
That was a beautiful personalized degen and I think the buyer got the best end of that deal on that one.
Did'nt seem like it took long to sell either.

Ross- Do you have a opinion, one way or another, based on your researh experiences which one is scarcer?

One of the main reasons that I prefer the rings is their mystic. They were designed by Weisthor and their relationship to the Wewelsburg. To each their own.

quote:

Originally posted by Dean Perdue:
Ross-
That was a beautiful personalized degen and I think the buyer got the best end of that deal on that one.
Did'nt seem like it took long to sell either.

Ross- Do you have a opinion, one way or another, based on your researh experiences which one is scarcer?

Hi Dean:

Others are better experienced to comment on the quantity of each available today. The nature of my research reveals more about who was qualified to receive the Totenkopf ring and the ring sizes of those recipients because of the bureaucratic paper trail that was left in dealing with these issues. I get far more requests for Totenkopf ring research than for SS officer degens, but that is to be expected since the name on the ring makes it a much better object to research and so few SS degens are identified. Type collecting will always have its place, but my interests center on the personal association, particularly if it can be documented and, most importantly, if the story is very compelling. In my own interest, the issue is not the quantity available of mass produced objects, but the human association with the object that makes an artifact unique. I always ask myself if an item could have an exhibit built around it or be featured in a magazine or book. It is those among both of these categories that are truly the rarest. I could tell many stories relating to this since I have researched so many German objects in the last few years, but I will share just one. I have a friend that has a German Gewehr 98 rifle from WW I with all appropriate markings. It was later modified to a 98K in the 1930s and issued to the SS (with appropriate markings). After the war, it became property of France (who marked it) and it was sent to French Indo-China when it was issued to French troops to re-establish their colonial empire. After the French got kicked out, it feel into the hands of the Vietnamese where it was captured from the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War by a U.S. Army officer who traded it to a U.S. Air Force service man for a steak dinner. It was subsequently brought back to the U.S and documented with its "bring-back" paper. It has since been published a number of years ago further establishing its provenance. But the author never told the whole story about the object! I would prefer to have just that one 98K (no it is not for sale at this time) as opposed to a house full of mint ones with all numbers matching. That is the kind of rarity that gets me excited, but it's JMO.

See you at the Max!

Thanks,

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

I rate an early awarded SS Führerdegen is harder to find then an early TK ring. Dates and production time frame has also an influence for their rarity of these two items.

I see quite a few 'stone mint' rings up for sale, no such luck with degens.

Nolan

I can presently buy at least 4 SS rings in near mint condition.
However, I have been looking for a near mint early SS Officer degen for the last 12 months and I haven't find nothing yet.
Sure, there are a few SS Officer degens on dealer's web sites but none are in the condition desired.
To me, a near mint SS Officer degen is much rarer than an SS ring.
The crafmanship involved in an SS degen can neither be compared with an SS ring.
I can only guess that it is the history behind the SS ring that makes it so much desirable.

an early pattern Honor ring in good condition is not an easy thing to find..A mint example? probably a handful..

The ring is something personal.. The man got his sword,,wore it a few times then it was put away ..
The ring was actually worn. With the man day in and day out, and even into combat conditions.. Its traceable, easily portable, and as much as I'd like to walk around wearing the sword I don't think It'd be a good idea ..

To each his own guys........

Pat, The Old Brigade (Stewart Wilson) in the UK has one POA, looks very nice he rates it Ex++.
Sold twice then re-appeared within the week, I suspect it's very expensive, might be worth a peek though

Nolan

I agree well said G.

I think Stewarts one is about $8k??
from what I heard
Seiler

quote:

Originally posted by Seiler:
I think Stewarts one is about $8k??
from what I heard
Seiler

Stewart told me 7800 English Pounds!!!

I was told Stewart's was well in excess of usd 10,000, at usd 8,000 it's a bargain

thanks rakra, i too understood stewart's degen was at a big price..usd 8,000 is a giveaway !!

I think this a case of getting dollars and pounds mixed up big style, this one is more £8000.

Nolan

Sorry,mix -up $/£
In any event a collector I know who knows his stuff says it is NOT that good and way over priced.He has seen/handled it.
Look at his pics/description and do the math.!!
Seiler

Does'nt that kind of hanger alone go for over $1000.usd

That's What I thought on his description alone, should be nearly mint for that amount of cash, the fact it was sold then relisted twice is maybe an indicator of condition as well.

Nolan

The original rarity question could be solved by going through one of the late SS rank lists where awards of the rings and swords are shown. That would give an original starting point anyway.

Dave

Good point Dave-
That's why I thought some ss researchers could be a help.
That would give at least some idea of which was scarcer for that year,but it does'nt give info on the totals produced during the period.
Too bad there's not complete list for all years of the era.

I thought I read it was estimated the rings numbered something around 14,000-20,000 total.
I never heard any speculation on total ss officer degens produced.

But what about what exist now.
Has'nt someone started some type of database on the rings?

Back when T.W. had his mailed out offerings it seemed like these degens outnumbered the rings IMO.Now its the oppisite.What's that mean?

I think the degen and ring are both outstanding items but was interested in knowing what collectors felt about there quantities.

Dave- Do you have a opinion on which one is scarcer?

Dean,

No idea at all. I don't collect swords or rings. I have seen a reasonable amount of both, neither one seems to have been more numerous. I will ask around at MAX.

Dave